One Ring, two batons

Discover Der Ring at La Scala

While it is normal for a conductor to hand over the baton to a colleague for some performances of the same show, it is not typical for two conductors to share a new production of Der Ring des Nibelungen equally. This is what is happening at La Scala with Simone Young and Alexander Soddy, following Christian Thielemann's withdrawal from conducting the cycle. In fact, it is unprecedented.

While it is common for a production of The Ring to be revived in subsequent years with a new conductor, either in Bayreuth or at other major theatres, it is highly unusual for two artists to be involved from the outset in constructing the show and making the complex interpretative choices required for Wagner's epic tale. This is likely only possible thanks to the alignment of musical planets. The most important aspect is that both Simone Young and Alexander Soddy come from a Wagnerian tradition dating back to Daniel Barenboim. Barenboim was the last to conduct The Ring at La Scala, in a production by Guy Cassiers, between 2011 and 2013.

OB This is such an unusual project. Was it the result of a choice or a necessity?

SY Initially, it was a necessity because Thielemann announced on short notice that he would not be able to conduct The Ring. Neither Soddy nor I had the time to take on such a commitment alone as our schedules did not allow it. So, the idea of tackling the project together was born—a rather unique and special one—which was ultimately possible because we both started from the same place.

Soddy has long been a highly accomplished independent conductor with his own musical style, but he first entered the world of The Ring with me 20 years ago when I was music director of the Hamburg Opera. Alexander was my first piano accompanist, just as I was Barenboim's piano assistant 30 years ago in Bayreuth. In other words, our shared vision of The Ring originates from the Bayreuth tradition, going back to Wilhelm Furtwängler and Daniel's important mentor, Barenboim.

Having worked with figures such as Barenboim at the piano—and Soddy later with Kirill Petrenko, also in Bayreuth—probably enabled us to bring this special project to life. Otherwise, I don't think it would be possible to share the podium with another conductor. Last autumn, fitting the rehearsals and performances of Das Rheingold like a puzzle into our schedules was almost a miracle, as it was for Die Walküre. It was possible not only because we start from the same musical starting point, but also because we had previously worked with the same singers for this Ring as we did in Vienna, Munich, Paris, and Berlin. In other words, we have formed a kind of family, speaking the same language and sharing the same musical ideas.

AS Yes, I don't think it's ever been done before, it's quite a unique situation, but ultimately, I think it's very interesting, perhaps revealing new aspects of our work. The idea of The Ring is so vast that it's as if four different works coexist within the cycle, highlighting very different aspects.

SY I had a similar experience in Berlin with Barenboim, but only for Götterdämmerung. I conducted the orchestra rehearsals, then Daniel arrived for the final ensemble, after which he conducted the first cycle of The Ring, and I conducted the revival. But that was possible because I entered his world, his way of interpreting Wagner, a sort of three-dimensional vision of his music. I think this is because both of us, like Soddy, come from the piano.

For a pianist who becomes a conductor, there is always the idea of the vertical weight of sound developing horizontally over time. Weight does not mean force or aggression, but rather depth, attraction towards the centre of gravity. This is the idea of sound we seek in Wagner. I always tell the orchestra to think of Schubert, to seek a sustained sound, deep but not too loud. Soddy and I have the same musical goals and, as Alexander said, perhaps this is the beginning of a new way of working, because I believe it is very stimulating for the orchestra and the singers to engage with two musical personalities who are related but not identical.

AS I agree. That's exactly what I think too. The production of a cycle as impressive as The Ring thrives on the flexibility and immediacy with which the story unfolds. The foundations are the same, but the immediate and spontaneous way of making decisions as you go along offers a new dimension to the world represented in the theatre. The idea of sound that I learned from Simone at the beginning of my career remains with me, but we have both conducted Wagner since the beginning and have internalised the text and dramatic progression of The Ring, so there is nothing dogmatic, no rigid canon of systems on how to conduct the repertoire. The extraordinary aspect of music lies in a profound knowledge of those aspects that allow one to be spontaneous. And I believe this also applies to singers, who are so skilled and musical that they can only enjoy the benefits and have fun while being subjected to different stimuli at the same time, which can become powerful creative elements.

SY For an artist, it is important to forget about technical problems during the performance; work on the finer details has already been done during rehearsals. When it comes to the show, the live performance, you need to feel like you are creating something new, something spontaneous, as if it were being born in that moment. Of course, there are also artists who repeat the same things, the same clichés, every night, but I find the formula we are experimenting with here very stimulating. After all, it is a new approach to musical theatre, and it works.

AS I also think that this kind of approach is particularly interesting in this music. I remember conducting most of The Ring during the rehearsals in Bayreuth when I was Kirill Petrenko's assistant, and he could listen to me, just as Simone did with Barenboim before me. Mutual friends told me that it was an extremely useful exercise, because the sound produced when working with orchestras of this calibre, such as Bayreuth or La Scala, is so mutable depending on who the conductor is, how they conduct, and how they move. I find this very interesting, because regardless of how you hear this music and the fact that the general approach is similar, the orchestra is an extremely flexible organism and reacts viscerally in the moment. So, I repeat, I really believe that it is a great advantage to be exposed to such different stimuli.

OB This is an interesting topic, for other reasons too. You have both conducted at the Festspielhaus in Bayreuth, which has unique characteristics in terms of sound. Simone Young was also the first woman to be invited to conduct a cycle of The Ring in Bayreuth. The orchestra is arranged in layers that descend deeper and deeper into the so-called mystical gulf, until it is more than two floors below the level of the podium. The impression is that a conductor must have a very different attitude towards the orchestra depending on the venue. In Bayreuth, the conductor's main task seems to be to guide the sound that arises from those depths, and it would probably be counterproductive to stimulate the orchestra too much. In a theatre such as La Scala, on the other hand, the conductor may need to push the orchestra to achieve a certain type of sound.

SY That's right, it's one of the things I learned last summer when conducting The Ring in Bayreuth. There is no other orchestra pit in the world that can reproduce the initial sound of DasRheingold like the Festspielhaus, that's an indisputable fact. But when Wagner wrote Das Rheingold, the theatre didn't exist, it hadn't been built yet. That sound was first and foremost in Wagner's mind, and I think my job is to seek out the sound that the composer had in mind in every theatre where I conduct.

I have conducted The Ring in Hamburg, Berlin, Vienna, and Munich, all of which have extremely different acoustics, but the central idea remains the same. It is a symphonic sound that comes from German Romanticism, starting with Beethoven and Schubert and continuing with Bruckner. We don't just play Wagner; I have personally conducted over 100 operas, including at least 18 by Verdi, with a repertoire ranging from Mozart to the present day. Each opera has its own particular characteristics and specific problems, and the experience gained in a certain type of repertoire helps to interpret everything else. Aida in Vienna, for example, helps me conduct Die Walküre in Milan.

The fascinating thing about this job is that every day, in every rehearsal, in every performance, you learn something, especially with TheRing. From one director to another, the staging of the show changes, and as a result, every phrase sung by the singer takes on a different meaning and must be approached differently. The singer's words begin with a particular sound, whether it's an “m”, a “de” or a “sch”, and we have to find that kind of sound in the pit too, because the orchestra is not only part of the music but also part of the text. Working with David McVicar is fantastic, because his idea for the show stems from a thorough knowledge of Wagner's text, as is the case with all the artists in the cast, who have a perfect command and awareness of the words they sing. This is why the theatre experience is so incomparable, because of the continuous and endless search for and discovery of new nuances and new possibilities.

AS Returning to the initial question about the relationship between sound and space, this was one of the first things we discussed with Simone many years ago. I can say, remembering when I had the opportunity to conduct in Bayreuth, that you can never learn enough about Wagner's sound as you can by conducting for an hour in the Festspielhaus, and it is incredible what we learned working with that wonderful orchestra and with great artists such as those in Bayreuth. But I must also add that every great orchestra, whether in Paris, London, or Vienna, has something special to offer. Of course, it is the responsibility of a conductor to achieve a certain ideal sound, formed through study and experience, but I believe it is equally important to know how to listen to what is new and different that the musicians you work with can give you. Today, the standard of musicians is very high everywhere, and each of us has had experiences all over the world. I am English, Simone is Australian, we trained in Germany, and we work in Italy and France. Here, for example, the orchestra has exceptional flexibility, a unique ability to listen to each other and follow the stage. The extraordinary thing about this kind of artistic koiné is that there is something to learn everywhere, given that we conduct so much and so many different repertoires. As long as you are willing to listen, which is the most important thing, there is nothing dogmatic about it.

SY It is important to emphasise this aspect, because we do not expect to do the same things in every theatre. Every high-level orchestra already has its own particular sound; everything else is added by the experience and teaching of the conductor. I would also like to highlight another thing that unites us in our work. The fact that we both have a sense of humour. We laugh a lot during rehearsals, and in my opinion, this is particularly important with Wagner because the ideas are so profound, so tragic—themes of power versus love, ideology versus humanity—that it is immediately clear how relevant The Ring still is, indeed how timeless it is, since it speaks of feelings experienced by people in every era. Perhaps it is simply the tragedy of humanity, but it certainly remains at the heart of this music. It is theatre music, it is music that breathes, it is beautiful and terrifying at the same time.

AS Equally important is that our training is rooted in the great tradition of the Kapellmeister, or a conductor accustomed to conducting the entire repertoire. Of course, each of us feels closer to certain composers, to certain scores, but we do not want to become specialists. We must grow with the entire repertoire, from Mozart to Strauss, Verdi to Puccini, because each title influences the rest of the work. This is very important since we know from experience how many clichés circulate around certain composers. Perhaps those who do not know Wagner intimately are inclined to think that he is all heavy, long, slow, dense or profound, when in fact he had a side that belonged to Schubert. Sometimes he shows himself to be light, dramatic, flexible, romantic, luminous, and beautiful like Puccini. In reality, they are closer than one might think. I believe this is an important message to convey to the public, because shutting oneself up in specialism means becoming a cliché oneself and losing authenticity.

SY When talking about La Scala and its orchestra, we must remember that this is a theatre with a long tradition, where the greatest maestros have worked. It is a privilege to conduct an opera here. My first opera at La Scala was Britten's Peter Grimes, which perhaps does not have a language that is inherent to the Italian tradition. But the intelligence and theatricality of these fantastic musicians allowed me to guide the sound in a direction that was perhaps new to them. The same thing happens with Wagner, and what I find truly surprising is to hear how the orchestra changes when the singers arrive. The true nature of this orchestra is opera, and I realised this on the day of the first Italian rehearsal, with singers and orchestra together, both in Grimes and Das Rheingold. That's when I said to myself, “This is it.” Because this is an orchestra that lives and breathes with the singers, and that's really something special.

OB Simone Young, I would like to avoid discussing the role of women as conductors. Nowadays, there are more and more women conducting orchestras, and they do it magnificently, just like you. I wonder, however, whether an epic work such as The Ring might be interpreted differently by a woman than by a man. An opera such as Die Walküre, for example, highlights a series of themes, from the amour fou of the first act to the experience of motherhood and the relationship between father and daughter, which perhaps a female conductor interprets differently from a male conductor.

SY I have been asked this question before, but it is impossible for me to answer, simply because I have never been a man! I cannot say whether I feel these things differently because I am a woman. I think it is important for an artist to have both strength and sensitivity, and it seems to me that we often tend to make a simplistic equation between masculine equals strength and feminine equals sensitivity. I do not believe this to be true. An artist must have enough imagination to identify with every character, to immerse themselves in every context. As a conductor, I have to be Wotan and Brünnhilde, Siegmund and Sieglinde, all the Valkyries and even Hunding in that moment. When I conduct, I can become any character. We are artists. Who is a conductor after all? A musician whose instrument is the orchestra.

AS Every great work of art contains something universal. Of course, our personal experiences play a part in defining the themes that are close to our hearts. For example, I am the father of two girls, so now I find the finale of DieWalküre much more moving, and I cry more than I used to, since I have a point of comparison. But there is no Shakespeare play, work of art or theatre piece that does not transcend gender divisions, between male and female or whatever direction sexuality takes, because in the end, in truth, the human theme is far more essential. What is truly fascinating and powerful in The Ring, and what is evident when rehearsing with McVicar, is that the music speaks of power and corruption, good and evil, truth and lies, hiding or keeping faith with agreements. I realise more and more that this transcends all our divisions between men and women, or of any other kind, and that is why this music is increasingly necessary today.

OB DerRing des Nibelungen is a gigantic work, created over a period of more than 20 years. It is incredible how Wagner managed to keep this endless story together over such a long period of time, while writing two other masterpieces, Tristan und Isolde and Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg. Can this continuity be felt in the music?

SY Certainly, but it should be noted that Wagner wrote the libretto first and composed the music backwards. He began by writing Götterdämmerung, then decided that he needed to tell the story of Siegfried, then that of Brünnhilde, and finally that of DasRheingold. Consequently, when he began composing the music, starting with Das Rheingold, he already knew where he was going to end up. Twenty years ago, Alexander and I worked on Wagner's works in Bayreuth; we spent weeks examining the scores with his corrections. I can still see the score of Götterdämmerung before my eyes, and I wonder how it is possible that one person sat down at a table one day and was able to conjure up all this from his imagination. This applies to Wagner, but also to Verdi and Puccini, Botticelli's paintings, Shakespeare's plays. How could a man have had such an incredible imagination as to invent these masterpieces? We have the privilege of following in the footsteps of these giants.

AS I would like to add two interesting points regarding your question. All the leitmotifs that form a tightly woven fabric in Götterdämmerung were already heard in their embryonic form in Das Rheingold, even though there is such a large time gap between the two operas. Wagner already had a world ready to be composed in his mind. But there is a noticeable break between the first part, up to the second act of Siegfried, and the rest. It is fascinating, especially given the weight and size of the orchestra. The third act of Siegfried suddenly becomes a much larger space, enormous in terms of sound balance and challenges for the orchestra, and we know that in the meantime Wagner wrote Tristan and Die Meistersinger. It is certainly fascinating, but when you consider the time it took to write all this, it is surprising.

SY We must also remember that Wagner was a Kapellmeister, and this certainly influenced his work. For example, in Meistersinger, the debt to Halévy's La Juive, an opera that Wagner admired and had conducted, is obvious.

AS The same could be said for Liszt's Faust-Symphonie, where you can hear a theme reminiscent of Siegfried's sword, or for the chord in Tristan, which can be found in a piano piece by Liszt.

OB Alexander Soddy, what is the most important thing you learned about Wagner from Simone Young?

AS Having a mentor of such calibre at the beginning of my career was a great stroke of luck. Of course, I learned a lot during years of collaboration and long conversations, but above all, it was important to be close to a musician of her calibre, who encouraged me to always seek authenticity, to strive for ever-better quality, to never give up. You could say that we have incredibly similar talents. We play the piano in the same way, we have an absolutely similar vision of music, so there is a very strong musical bond. I think that when you find a wonderful mentor at the beginning of your career, the most important thing is to be able to stay close to them. It's not so much what you can learn every day, which is also there, but rather finding confirmation of the things you have and realising that it is possible to become what you want to be. Simone never tried to make me a copy of herself, but rather to encourage me to find the best version of who I was. I think that's the greatest lesson you can receive from someone, and Simone has this extraordinary ability to care for others and to do so in the right way. For Wagner, I would say that this meant what we talked about earlier, his exceptional instinct for sound, for literature, for a certain way of playing legato. You learn a lot by preparing singers on the piano in bel canto, and we both started out that way, doing a lot of Italian bel canto repertoire. There is a difference with the German legato style, which has more to do with sustained sound, with the upbeat. I also learned what the Germans call Handwerk, craftsmanship, knowledge of how these works are constructed, understanding of their symphonic nature and how singers adapt to it, and finally the ability to find a balance between moments when you have to follow the voices and give the artists freedom, and others when control and guidance are necessary.

OB But there must be something you disagree on! Don't you ever have different opinions about anything?

SY Of course, we are not the same person, and we often have different points of view, but the discussion is always friendly and, above all, constructive. Barenboim once told me that the most important thing is not to know how, but why, and that is the truth. For me, what matters most in an artist is curiosity, always searching for the truth that lies in music and theatre. You are always consumed by the anxiety to find something more, even at the cost of not sleeping at night or not taking holidays. That's what makes an artist interesting.

AS Searching is the key word, and you must never stop searching for something new. Even if you have done something dozens of times, you need to go even deeper. Also, to motivate the many people who play for you, they need to see that you are always searching for the next goal.

Oreste Bossini